Conversation between Tyler Denmead and Greg Kelly

March 16, 2006

Greg Kelly and Tyler Denmead's first conversation is the post, "Starting Up" which appeared on our blog on November 29, 2005. This is a follow up conversation. Greg is the co-founder of the Bridge and can be reached at greg@thebridgepai.com

TD: What's on your mind?

GK: The definition of what it means to be an artist in our day and age.

TD: Uh oh.... I'm having a hard time understanding what it means for me personally, let alone the world.

GK: Well, let's get specific. I've been reading more and more about some developing trends in the art world with regards to social practices (i.e. collectives, collaboration, process over product, etc… It seems to run somewhat counter to my education in "art school".)

TD: What did you learn in art school?

GK: I think there was more of a sense of individual success based upon personal vision - getting gallery representation, selling work, making a career of it. However, there was little attention given to the purpose of all this. What it means to be an artist, beyond the passion and romantic portrayals. How we contribute, for example.

TD: My impression of "art school" - and I did not go - so I'm not entirely wedded to these ideas - but my observation of art school is developing an isolated studio practice, in which one refines their technical skills in a specific discipline. At a local arts school in Providence, it seems that the culture forces students to take pride in how much time they spend in the studio. Time and space for any social engagement is not encouraged or rewarded.

GK: Bingo.

TD: I've noticed these schools struggle with what their missions ought to be. It seems like the mission of art and design schools is that they want their students to become the best glove makers and most famous painters, but we are living in a much more complex world. If these students are going to be the image/content makers of the future, and image/content means everything - then it seems that social responsibility and civic-mindedness become essential elements to that education. And, it must extend beyond the artist engaging in the community so that it helps them propel toward their goal of becoming the best glove maker or the most famous painter. In some ways, I think the growing movement of organizations like ours presents an alternative model that they will have to respond to eventually. So many of the artists who are creating these communities are doing so in response to their dissatisfaction with their education.

GK: Tyler, do you have any art history under your belt?

TD: Yes. I majored in it. Though my studies were limited to later nineteenth century Western European - pretty limited department at Brown at the time.

GK: The reason I ask is that through out history these questions have ebbed and flowed between so many waves of focus. In the 20th century there were several, very prominent groups, movements, and individuals who addressed these very issues. (i.e. Dada, Joseph Beuys, Group Material in the 80's...)

TD: The folks at Black Mountain...

GK: They're a great example. John Cage was actually, I believe, on to something much larger than making challenging steps in music. He saw something in the disconnect between all our thinking, framing, and defining, which was actually holding many of us back from richer, deeper experiences, deeper connection. I see this, more and more, as the role of artists. To be stewards, in some way, to that access.

TD: Yes... And, for an artistic practice to be sustainable - it requires deeper connection and providing others access. Relationships are as important to being an artist as the process of making work. For a creative practice to be strong, a network of support - a community must be strong. When one becomes stronger, the other improves. It's a simple concept, what we are talking about, but why does it feel so against the grain?

GK: I think it has to do with taking care of #1. We can't help but be creatures of habit and our deepest habit is ourselves: preservation, survival... Though we both seem to know that this “survival” comes more readily and easily by helping others.

TD: Instinctually, we recognize that we need connections to lead meaningful, rich lives - yet we create lives for ourselves that make this exceedingly difficult.

GK: Is it the culture?

TD: I think so - the culture of competition, heavily programmed/scheduled lives so that we don’t think but consume, achievement…

GK: Do you see echoes of history repeating? Do you believe we're slowly evolving on each go round of new societies, new cultures or have the cavemen simply brought laptops to the bashing? I keep hearing that we are the modern Roman Empire. I think of this as both beautiful and terribly true in other ways, seeing where most empires end up. There's urgency in the air. I think it's collective. We don't want to blow the opportunity yet again.

TD: Where is the urgency taking The Bridge today?

GK: Initially it took us into somewhat urgent and impulsive ambitions of screaming about it. I kept trying to saturate everything with something I simply have not yet come to embody. I believe we have been making the mistake of all revolutions: declaring a way with out embodying it first and foremost. Mastering ourselves, owning up to our own personal work, putting down the judgment. The paperweight says it all. "Be the change you wish to see." I think that we're just waking up to that at The Bridge.

TD: Sounds beautiful.

GK: I'd like to return to our first point of focus. Defining what it is to be an artist.

TD: I don't think these two ideas are too far apart - an artist must be able to sit very comfortably within himself or herself to be effective, in my view. Though I don't think the market rewards this, I think it to be true. Much of being an artist is about dishonesty: ripping off people's images, ideas, faces, position in life.

GK: How do you mean?

TD: If I were to write a poem right now, I'd be using some of your words.

GK: And, I would use some of yours.

TD: Yes. So, I think we need to be honest about that, rather than saying that we're not ripping each other off and that I'm a genius. Our poems originate from these relationships. They are better because of it. And, they are ours. Not mine.

GK: Frederick Sommer, a mentor, said something really beautiful. He said, “All rare things should be lent away and I have borrowed very freely. Let all those who here recognize their wares in turn make restitution lest their sleep be more disturbed than useful.” What he was essentially saying is that the idea of “originality” is somewhat of a silly carrot to chase.

TD: Yet, we obsess. We obsess! (I just instant messaged another friend with that quote asking him what he thought it meant. He responded, "Have a yard sale.")

GK: Everyone's experience is unique and that's what makes everyone's work ultimately useful, beautiful, and needed. The problem is that it takes time to arrive at a sense of who we are.

TD: Lifetimes.

GK: And even more time to love that someone: to share it with your cahoonas hanging out in the wind.

TD: … To not doubt and distrust it.

GK: As we've brought things into focus, I'm seeing that the real service or insight I would like to share with young artists is precisely what we've been talking about. We must give young artists a head start. It's taken you and I 30 some odd years. How cool it would be to have kids empowered with such insight before they even hit high school.

TD: It requires a new form of education.

GK: One I believe we're testing out at NUA and The Bridge.

TD: Right... First, we stop the conversation about "artistic standards" and "artistic proficiencies" that policy makers are using so that arts education does not get cut from schools. I appreciate the effort, but I don't want my kids to be proficient in art - sounds like standing still.

GK: Yes. DeKooning, the crazy ab-ex painter, said he preferred to be sliding.

TD: Then, we stop confining the arts to units and disciplines. We need more ambiguity - more possibilities for freedom.

GK: The art world is reflecting this. Everyone’s tackling everything from every angle. All mediums are accepted. However, we don't have a grasp on what it's for.

TD: Right. Meaning... what is it for if it cannot be sold?

GK: Right. How do we survive without commerce driven mediums or with them, while sustaining the imagination and spirit.